Fox News "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript

Interview

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WALLACE: Joining us now are two of the Senate's leading authorities on foreign and defense policy: Senator John McCain, and in West Palm Beach, Senator Joe Lieberman.

Let's start with what Secretary Gates said on one of the other Sunday shows, Senator McCain. He says that he doesn't think that Libya is a vital interest for the United States, but that we have a vital interest in that part of the world. Would you be sending American servicemen and women into harm's way for something that was not a vital interest to the country?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: No, but, obviously, we could quibble over what the definition of "vital interests" are. We said after Srebrenica that we'd never, again after Rwanda, never again, after the Holocaust never again.

The fact is that Qaddafi's forces were on the outskirts of Benghazi. He said himself he would go house-to-house and kill and murder people. Thank God, at the 11th hour, with the no-fly zone, the quote, "no-fly zone," we prevented that from happening.

Now, clearly, the momentum has shifted dramatically and the initiative is in the hands of those who are -- the second aspect of it, of course, is that if you had allowed Qaddafi to do that, as soon as the signal to the other leaders in the Middle East, dictators and not, it's OK to massacre your own people to stay in power.

And, finally, well, this is a moment of historic proportions. And this will give us a golden opportunity to help with democracy and freedom throughout the Arab world.

WALLACE: So, Senator Lieberman, what should President Obama tell the American people tomorrow night?

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, I-CONN.: Well, I think president Obama should begin in exactly the terms that John McCain just described -- explain why we are there, why it's vitally important that the United States is part of an international coalition of Libya.

There are two reasons. One is that we are there to avert the humanitarian disaster. I mean, the fact is that if the coalition forces had not gone into Libya now about a week ago, we'd be on the Sunday show be mourning -- really crying over a humanitarian disaster in Benghazi, a slaughter of thousands of people. We would be asking, why didn't Obama do something? Why did the world stand by?

Instead, today, we averted that. Longer term, what is happening now in the Middle East, Chris, is remarkable. We have for too long defined the choices in the Arab world as between secular dictators and radical Islamist dictators.

Now, the people of the Arab world had said, no, we want another choice. We want democracy. We want freedom and economic opportunity.

These revolutions, in Tunisia and Egypt, and the one that started peacefully in Libya, are the most profound repudiation of al Qaeda and Iran, who represent the most serious threats of American security in the world today. And, therefore, we're --

WALLACE: Right.

LIEBERMAN: -- in going to Libya, we are saying we are with the "Arab Spring." We want to keep it going and not let the brutal dictators respond --

WALLACE: Let's get to some of the nuts and -- let's get to some of the nuts and bolts questions, however.

Senator McCain, NATO has taken command of all aspects of the Libyan operation, both the no-fly zone and also the civilian protection. Given the fact that the U.S. is already tied down in two wars in Muslim countries, in Iraq and Afghanistan, is President Obama right or wrong to turn over so much of the control of this operation to NATO, to Arab countries and European countries?

MCCAIN: As long as the United States does what it always does and we actually lean. The assets -- many of the assets that are there are uniquely held by the United States of America.

But I just repeat again what Joe is saying. This really should be the focus of our attention right now. Some have compared it to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Some have compared it to the fall of the Iron Curtain and the collapse of the Soviet Union.

This is historic times of enormous opportunity and proportions. And we should be doing whatever we can to not have brutal dictators remain in power without the commitment of U.S. ground troops in Libya or anyplace else.

WALLACE: Senator Lieberman, let me ask you about one of the other nuts and bolts question -- and that is the confusion over the mission. The president says Qaddafi must go, but the U.N. resolution, as you know, only calls for protecting civilians.

So, what should the U.S. do? How do we back up our rhetoric? Do we get Qaddafi out? Do we arm the rebels? Do U.S. forces -- as Speaker Gingrich just suggested -- at least from the air, target Qaddafi and the regime?

LIEBERMAN: Well, it seems to me that the only acceptable way for this to end in Libya is for Qaddafi to go. And in that sense, President Obama was absolutely right.

You know, though the rhetoric surrounding this action at Libya, the diplomatic rhetoric has been confusing at times. I think what's not been confusing is what the coalition forces have been doing over the air of Libya. And that is we're taking aggressive action, not only to keep their planes on the ground but to stop their forces from attacking.

We have taken a side in Libya. And it's the right side. We ought to be open about it. We are taking a side of the freedom fighters in Libya against one of the most totalitarian regimes that has ever existed in the world, which is Qaddafi's. And in the end of this, Qaddafi has to go, one way or the other.

WALLACE: Well, do you think because -- supposedly we haven't taken a side. I understand that it's just protecting civilians. But, you know, now, apparently the rebels have taken Brega, they are headed on the way to Sirte, on the way to Tripoli. How much should the U.S. do to advance the rebel move on to the capital of Tripoli?

MCCAIN: If three week ago, we would have imposed a no-fly zone, this thing would have been over then. It's very clear that air power is a decisive factor in battlefields of this nature. We found that out in World War II.

So, we should continue to make sure that the civilians are not harmed or massacred or killed by Qaddafi forces. The day the French aircraft flew over, the Libyans stopped flying.

This policy has been characterized by confusion, indecision and delay. And it's no wonder -- the nature of your question -- that Americans are confused to do exactly what our policy is because on one hand, it's humanitarian. On the other hand, they say Qaddafi must go.

The president, I hope, will clarify that in his speech on Monday night.

WALLACE: And would you like him to commit the U.S. to at some role in toppling Qaddafi?

MCCAIN: I would like to say -- hear him say Qaddafi should be either with Hugo Chavez, with Hitler and Stalin or the International Criminal Court, and we should take actions to make sure that happens over time.

WALLACE: All right. Both of you have talked about what some people are calling the "Arab Spring" -- this extraordinary spread of people power in a lot of repressive regimes. The complication, of course, are: what follows it? Some of the dictators are on our side, some of them aren't.

Let's talk first of all, Senator Lieberman, about the astonishing situation in Syria.

LIEBERMAN: Right.

WALLACE: A violent crackdown there. But given the fact that President Assad is no friend of the U.S., he is Iran's biggest ally in the Middle East, what should we do about Syria?

LIEBERMAN: Well, let me say, first, that it's very important for everybody to understand that what we're doing with the world community in Libya is what the Arab world wants to us do. What the Arab street wants to us do. So, finally, we are on the side of the mass of people yearning to be free within the Arab world.

Secondly, I think the world has made a clear statement in Libya heard by both the Arab people and the Arab dictators elsewhere in the region. And I say with regard to Syria, that Assad, the dictator there, out to and probably is getting a clear message. If he turns his weapons on his people and begins to slaughter them, as Qaddafi did, he's going to run the risk of having the world community come in and impose a no-fly zone and protect civilian population, just as we're doing in Libya.

And, therefore, Assad has one choice -- and that is to negotiate with the freedom fighters in Syria to create an entirely different government there --

WALLACE: Let me just say interrupt briefly, Senator Lieberman, we are running out of time. But are you suggesting that you would support some kind of international coalition to go in and do in Syria what we're doing now in Libya?

LIEBERMAN: If Assad does what Qaddafi was doing, which is to threaten and go house-to-house and kill anybody who's not on his side. There's a precedent now that the world community has set in Libya. And it's the right one.

We're not going to stand by and allow this Assad to slaughter his people like his father did years ago.

LIEBERMAN: And in doing so, we're being consistent with our American values, and we're also on the side of the Arab people, who want a better chance for a decent life.

WALLACE: Let me switch to Yemen, though, Senator McCain, which is a little bit more complicated, because President Saleh has been helpful in the U.S. war on terror. And if he steps down, Al Qaeda, in Yemen, may take not control of the country, but is going to have a kind of free vacuum that they can fill. And there are new reports that al Qaeda in Yemen is planning terrorist strikes.

What do we do about Saleh and Yemen?

MCCAIN: First of all, I'm sure -- let's give some moral support to those people who are risking their live against this brutal regime. Every one of these countries is different. I'm very optimist that over time, Egypt and Tunisia can make transition to democracy.

Yemen is entirely different. This is going to be a huge problem because it is basically a tribal society. As you know, cobble together the country by the British, and so it's going to be very difficult in some of these countries.

And frankly, I don't know what we do about -- I have to be honest. I don't know what we do exactly about Yemen, except that, obviously, the president has to step down, as he has agreed to do so.

It's going to be very complicated and complex in that some of these countries that have never known a modicum of democracy, or even national unity. Egypt is the key. Do not take our attention off Egypt, the center of the Arab world.

WALLACE: Finally, Senator McCain, on a different note, HBO is making a movie about the 2008 campaign. And I'm sure you're happy to relive.

If you look at the screen, you will see that they have cast Ed Harris to play you. I don't know who they're going to get to play Lieberman. Maybe Brad Pitt.

What do you think, Senator?

LIEBERMAN: I was hoping. Thank you, Chris. Yes.

WALLACE: What do you think of Ed Harris?

MCCAIN: Oh, I think he's a very fine actor and a great actor. I obviously haven't read the book, so I don't think I'll be watching the film.

WALLACE: You know how it turns out anyway, right?

MCCAIN: I'm made very aware about its depiction of me, and it is what it is.

WALLACE: Senator McCain, Senator Lieberman, we want to thank you both for joining us today. Always good to talking with you, gentlemen.

MCCAIN: Thanks for having us on.

LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Chris.

WALLACE: Up next, our Sunday regulars on how the president is handling Libya and what he should say in his speech to the nation tomorrow night.

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